blair :No I don’t think so. “The wages of sin is death” – not damnation. I’m not a Bible scholar. Years ago I saw a TV preacher explain how hell was invented to scare people and is not rooted in the Bible.

Lesson Learned. TV Preachers are bad for your spiritual health.

For the Biblical truth on this doctrine, see The Lost Doctrine of Eternal Hell. Be forewarned, this is not a very “uplifting” post.

No I don’t think so. “The wages of sin is death” – not damnation. I’m not a Bible scholar. Years ago I saw a TV preacher explain how hell was invented to scare people and is not rooted in the Bible. Losing your after-life (the supernatural spirit writing and and your spirit reading this post) was thought to be sufficient deterrence.

The atheistic viewpoint does not recognize God because he is supernatural. In so doing, it doesn’t recognize things that can’t be observed, counted and quantified. It says thoughts are simply electrons passing through your brain, following the laws of physics and elecromagnetism, without meaning or will-power able to defy the laws of physics.

Tim, I’m not sure there’s a God. You feel it or you don’t. The older I get, the more I feel like I’ve been blessed rather than lucky. But will you concede that the supernatural exists, able to defy the laws of gravity every time I lift my arm, unpredictable and arbitrary? Or does your faith require that nature must account for life and we simply aren’t yet smart enough to know the mathematic equation to create life and emotion and meaning?

I know you said in your last post that you would no longer check or respond to post on this blog. I hope that is as untruthful as many of the other things you said here.

The problem with you fireman story is that you are judging the fireman using your standards not Gods. The whole premise of religion is that there is a higher being. Your determination that fireman is a “good man” because he rescues children and adopts puppies etc is based on your definition of what a good man should do or be.

I will admit that many religious people fall into the same trap. Regardless of the religion, there are many that are a bit too eager to judge others based on their particular notions. If you are a Christian, for example, you have been admonished by Jesus to “judge not, lest ye be judged” Of course, those that believe in god also believe that he requires us as people, and as a society, to try to live our lives in a way that is adherent to his commands. Where to draw the line is and has always been a dilemma for people of faith.

I am not sure what else to say to you regarding the existence of God. I fear you have hardened your heart, closed your mind and wrapped yourself in what you believe to be reason. It is sad that you have come to such a place, I will hold out hope that you find happiness one day.

What would I say to this God if asked why I should be allowed into Heaven? I would tell Him that I don’t want to be a part of a Heaven that excludes the fireman. I’d rather go to Hell, find the fireman, give him a hug, and thank him for a life that reason tells me is worthy of a standing ovation, but which fundamental religious doctrine deems worthy of a place in Hell.

For anyone who is yearning to free yourself from the shackles of religious fear, please know that there are hundreds of millions of atheists waiting for you with open arms. We accept that human consciousness almost certainly ceases to exist when our brains die. And if there is an afterlife, we’re here to tell that you are equally likely to meet a vindictive god who needs you to believe in Him as you are a giant purple unicorn who will lick you on the face and tell you he loves you, which is to say not very likely at all. If atheism is the willingness to change one’s mind at its intellectual core, it is freedom from fear at its emotional core. We simply believe that you don’t have to be afraid to be a kind, loving person.

This is my final post on this blog. I want to sincerely thank those who followed and for all the thoughtful, respectful dialogue, and particularly Rob for posting an editorial with which I think he probably vehemently disagrees. I hope that I have given those who question faith a reasonable starting point for doing so. I won’t be checking this blog anymore, but I invite you to use it as a forum for such questioning. I wish you all well in your lives.

I have to admit that I’m a little perplexed, not so much by the fact that you would object to my statement, but rather that you should be surprised by it. Surely you are aware of the Christian doctrine of eternal Hell. I realize that many churches (unfortunately) avoid this doctrine today, but I have to wonder if you have familiarized yourself enough with Christianity to even reject it. Christians don’t adopt the doctrine of Hell because it is pleasant, but because we see it as objectively true.

This will bring me to my motive for being here Tim. I did not come aboard this discussion to win a debate, or to sharpen my debate skills (though the more I practice, the better I get at it.) I must confess to a more sinister motive. I came here for the good of your soul, as well as anyone who may be reading and wondering about the things of God. Let me ask you this. In theory, if you were to stand before a just and holy God, and He were to ask you why you should be allowed into His heaven, what answer would you give to Him. The idea that Lennon and Carlin are in hell grates against your sensitivities. This is because you have too high of a view of man, and too low of a view of God. God is holy, and He cannot but hate sin. His standard is perfection, and we have failed miserably to meet it. To suggest that anyone can enter the kingdom of God sans Christ is to hold man in too high of a regard, defame the Holiness of God, and insult the work of Christ. Christ came to save sinners from this wrath, but only those whom He has endowed with faith in Him.

My apologetic would be incomplete if I were not to share these truths with you. I can argue with you, but only God can reveal these truths to you, and He mostly does so by the gospel that I have just shared.

Before you comment too much in this area, I would like for you to watch this 4 minute video.

A True Christian

Please watch it until the very end and give me your reaction.

I’m still here, though you keep ignoring me while continuing to open up epistemological doors that you can’t justify.

Atheism gets their values from the Bible? Interesting. Why? What is the basis for those values?

Free Will? What is that? How does an atheist justify free will when his own worldview logically leads to materialistic and genetic determinism?

It’s sad too see a nice guy like yourself base your worldview upon the questionable authority of John Lennon and George Carlin. Carlin may make light of the seriousness of sin, but he and Lennon are currently all to aware of the rality of Hell.

BTW: I have given you logical and reasonable proof for God’s existence. I have yet to see a good answer from you.

First, the Church was most definitely not integrated into our legal system. Our founding legal document is explicit on this point. And I argue that its words outweigh both the quotes that you and I present.

U.S. Constitution: “No religious test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”

First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

Second, for each of the quotes you presented for each man, I present a quote by the same man. I argue that it is not remarkable for these politicians to have occasionally made comments favorable to religion because that would have been the politically and socially acceptable thing to do. I ague that it is far more remarkable that they expressed skepticism towards religion in their time, and explicitly excluded it from our system of governance.

George Washington, a famously quiet man, spoke loudly with his actions: he refused to take communion, and cut out every reference to Jesus Christ in his presidential address. At the time he was aware that he was on his deathbed, he refused to have any sort of priest present or any Christian ritual performed. Also, in all of his thousands of letters used in the Greely autobiography, “the name of Jesus Christ never appears, and is notably absent from his will.”

John Adams: “ I mix religion with politics as little as possible,” and, as an old man “I cannot classify myself under that denomination [Calvinist].”

Ben Franklin: “Revelations [including the Ten Commandments] had indeed no weight with me…”

James Madison: “Religion itself may become a motive to persecution and oppression…” and “[r]eligious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise every expanded project.”

Thomas Jefferson and I both think Jesus was a good man, but Jefferson was clear on his thoughts on a Christian God as “a being of terrific character, cruel, vindictive, capricious, and unjust.” Jefferson also noted that Christianity is “our particular superstition,” and famously said that the First Amendment built “a wall of separation between church and state.” This quote is all over our caselaw.

Third, as to your summary of atheism: Yes, we have conclusive evidence that we evolved from animals, and I am happy to see that many Christians are beginning to come around on this one. If you haven’t read it, I do highly recommend checking out the original Charles Darwin’s “On the Origin of Species.” Yes, there is no evidence that anything happens to us after we die other than that we decompose (as much as I wish that weren’t so). To the extent that when you say “we are only accountable to the laws of the land” you mean that “we won’t be judge by a God”, I agree that there is no evidence that we will be judged by a God. I don’t know what you mean by “our life has no real significance.” I find significance in my life in the ways that I affect other people’s lives, in human reason, and in the magnificent complexity of our Universe.

I also agree with you summary of religious beliefs, and agree that you find them to be cheerier. I simply argue that there is not independently verifiable evidence in support of the them.

I might summarize things differently:
Atheism: 1) Willingness to change one’s mind based on evidence, 2) respect and awe for science, reason, and logic, 3) glean moral lessons from a wide variety of sources, including the Bible.

Religion (not just Christianity) 1) Certainty without independently verifiable evidence, 2) Rejection of science, reason and logic when they conflict with religious beliefs, 3) glean morals from one source that, in the case of Christianity, simultaneously advises us to be loving and to occasionally beat our children with a rod.

Fourth, we are perfectly capable of acting in ways different from other animals even though we evolved from them. I agree that if someone does something that you and I find repugnant, Lumberjacks, and that person is not caught by our legal system, then they do indeed “get away with it.” While I wish this weren’t so, I find no evidence to contradict it. They may or may not feel guilt. I’m not sure what you mean by “life is worthless.” I find great worth in my own life and the lives of those I love. I think my disbelief in an afterlife only serves to highlight how valuable I think this life is. Aftera all, I believe it is my only one and it is fleeting.

Fifth, correlation is not causation. All of the trends on the graphs you show are statistically correlated with the following (keep a sense of humor, here, Lumberjacks): the increase in the number of NFL teams, the number of computers produced, and the number of Robert DeNiro films made. None of this has anything to do with causation, though. But since you brought up correlational data, here is some other data to consider: according to the 2005 UN Human Development Report, the least religious societies on the planet have the highest life expectancies, highest rates of adult literacy, highest per capita income, highest educational attainment, most gender equality, lowest homicide rates, and lowest infant mortality rates. Of the 25 most dangerous cities in the United States, 76% are in “red” states, which are strongly Christian conservative. Of the 25 least dangerous cities, 63% are in “blue” states.” The 12 states with the highest burglary rates are red. Of the 22 states with the highest murder rates, 17 are red. While I agree that none of this proves causality, the data do show that believing in a Christian God does not ensure societal health, while being atheist is compatible with societal health.

I agree that a capitalist system functions more efficiently with ethical restrictions. I argue, thought, that the reason and logic of the Enlightenment embraced by our Founers ought to be the source of those restrictions, rather than a single religion.

I’ll conclude this post on what I intend to be a light note of humor, not disrespect:
“Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of time!” – George Carlin